EPOCHTV
- Dec 26, 2023
- 22 min read

The Truth About George Floyd's Death: Liz Collin

“It wasn't so much what the jury was allowed to see, but what they were not. We even talked about this body camera footage—this is about an 18 minute interaction with George Floyd that day. It's 90 seconds in the end that the jury is allowed to see in trial.”

In this episode, I sit down with Emmy Award-winning reporter Liz Collin, producer of the new narrative-busting documentary, “The Fall of Minneapolis.”

“I went to the Minneapolis Police website, where they've always had their manual online for years, and there are two pages that are mysteriously missing from the manual at that time. So, I knew that something more was at work here,” says Ms. Collin.

She breaks down what really happened the day George Floyd died, what the media left out, and what evidence was withheld at the trial.

“To manipulate a story like this, to hide things from the public, it's really a testament to poor leadership I think as well, that nobody was willing to just stand up and speak the truth,” says Ms. Collin.

She says that despite millions of people having already viewed her documentary, not one mainstream media outlet has reached out to her for an interview.

Watch the clip:

“I think there's so much more to that encounter that people in power didn't want people to know,” says Ms. Collin. “I've just never seen corruption on this type of level before in my career.”

Watch the full documentary "The Fall of Minneapolis."

🔴 WATCH the full episode (37 minutes) on Epoch Times: https://ept.ms/S1216LizCollin

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Jan Jekielek: Liz Collin, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Liz Collin: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Mr. Jekielek: You've made an astonishing film. You've liberally used body cam footage from the police officers involved in the arrest of George Floyd, including Derek Chauvin, that was withheld for a long time. Most of what is in your film is now public domain, yet you put it together telling a very different story than the world is aware of. Please tell me about your background. How did you get into this so deeply?

Ms. Collin: I like to say this isn't a story I ever set out to tell. I never wanted to or wished I had, to be quite honest. I was a member of the mainstream media for nearly 20 years. I worked about 14 years of that at a CBS station in Minneapolis where I was an anchor and reporter. At the time this all unfolded on May 25th, 2020, I was married, and am currently still married to the former union president of the Minneapolis Police Department. But I, my career, and our family got caught up in all of this.

More than anything, I was so troubled as a journalist seeing this unfold because the media really was privy to all of this information, public information as you point out. Instead of actually trying to get at the facts of the case, and push back against some of these narratives that we knew simply were not true, there was this fear that permeated the air in Minneapolis and across the country as well. You had to go this one way and not even bother to care about facts and about what we saw happening with our justice system. That's just a bit of the background of how I got here a few years later.

Mr. Jekielek: You knew basically the day after these traumatic events transpired that something was really off.

Ms. Collin: It was really the very next day after this happened at 38th and Chicago in Minneapolis where George Floyd was arrested. For the very first time, you have the mayor and the chief of police, holding multiple press conferences. I knew the chief called in the FBI that very night, just hours after this unfolded. Clearly I had a very unique perspective with my husband's job. But as a reporter, you have them holding press conferences and saying things like, “Whatever happened there at 38th and Chicago with George Floyd, this isn't a part of police training. We've never seen this maneuver before.”

Speaker 3: What I observed was not training that I ever participated in, and none that I observed other officers participating in.

Ms. Collin: As a reporter, I went to the Minneapolis Police website where they've always had their manual online for years, and there are two pages that are mysteriously missing from the manual at that time, so I knew that something more was at work here. They also said that George Floyd had never been arrested before, and that Minneapolis police never had anything to do with him, which was also not true. A year earlier in 2019, he was the subject of an undercover drug investigation. If you play the body camera footage next to the body camera footage in 2020, they are eerily similar as to what played out.

But more than anything, it was the body camera footage from that incident in 2020 that they hid from the public. That has never happened before in any type of critical incident. This is the point of body cameras on Minneapolis police officers that taxpayers paid for years ago, to increase transparency. Again, all of this was hidden and manipulated, and I knew that very early on.

Mr. Jekielek: With respect to this body cam footage being withheld, you knew about that because your husband was head of the police union. That's some of the first people that get that footage, correct?

Ms. Collin: Right. He knew something was obviously off here too, because the union wasn't allowed to view this. It was ultimately withheld for about two-and-a-half months altogether. To this day, most people have never seen that entire encounter with George Floyd, which is why we wanted to start the film with just that.

Mr. Jekielek: Why do you think the footage was withheld for so long?

Ms. Collin: There's so much more to that encounter that people in power didn't want people to know. You have George Floyd who is very resistant from the very beginning. George Floyd is talking about how he can't breathe long before Derek Chauvin even arrives on scene.

Speaker 4: I told you, man, I can't breathe.

Ms. Collin: You have a black officer who arrests George Floyd that day. Alex Kueng is black. That didn't fit the narrative, and he'll be the first to tell you that in the film as well. You also have George Floyd who's pulled out of a cramped vehicle at the time, but yet he says he is claustrophobic and can't be put into the back of a squad car. You have Thomas Lane who calls for an ambulance 36 seconds after George Floyd is placed on the ground. I should say that George Floyd himself asks to be placed on the ground because he does not want to get in the back of that squad car. George Floyd is also saying again and again that he didn't take anything and he's not on anything. I should also say regarding this MRT [Maximal Restraint Technique], they make reference to it in the body camera footage as well.

Speaker 5: Let's take them out and just-

Speaker 4: [inaudible].

Ms. Collin: There's a reason that they tried to keep it hidden.

Mr. Jekielek: I want to talk about that briefly. It is called maximal restraint technique, correct? MRT is standard usage. It's in all the manuals, and people are trained in it. You have multiple police officers talking about that. Then you have footage of the chief of police on the stand saying that that method, which apparently Derek Chauvin used in literally a textbook way, is not part of what police officers in Minneapolis do. When you saw that, how did you react to that?

Ms. Collin: There was so much of this that I kept saying, "They're lying. They are lying." I first put a book out about all this called, They're Lying: The Media, The Left, and the Death of George Floyd, and this film is based on that. But I really couldn't believe all along that this dragged out not just for months, but for years, and how people were so quick to lie and then go along with it, and nobody seemed to want to call them out. You have the chief of police under oath say that MRT is not a part of police training.

Speaker 6: I must ask you, is this a trained Minneapolis police department defensive tactic technique?

Speaker 7: It is not.

Ms. Collin: You have the head of training, then Inspector Katie Blackwell, who says the same thing.

Speaker 6: Is this a trained technique that's by the Minneapolis Police Department when you were overseeing the training unit?

Speaker 8: It is not.

Ms. Collin: This is not just recently. This is training that dates back decades. We found a police training manual from 1993 that specifically talks about MRT, and the trial transpired 10 months after the death of George Floyd. But that really sent a message about the damage that lies can do.

Mr. Jekielek: Something that's also very stark that not a lot of people know about, but I think an increasing number have more recently, is that there were multiple autopsy reports.

Ms. Collin: Yes. That's why we wanted to lay this out in the film the way we did. Just to give a sense of the timeline, you actually have George Floyd's autopsy finished within 12 hours of his death.

Speaker 9: George Floyd was a healthy young man.

Ms. Collin: Keep in mind, this is long before any buildings burn in Minneapolis or across the country for that matter. But then all of a sudden you have the FBI involved in interviews with the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, Dr. Andrew Baker. You also have prosecutors involved interviewing him multiple times as a week goes by. Again, this is all part of public documentation as this narrative changes a bit from the original findings 12 hours after his death, and we wanted to go into that a bit.

The point of the film here isn't so much that this is what you need to think about this. It's more like, “Here's all the information that was kept from you. Please question why it was kept from you. Then you can go ahead and decide for yourself.”

You have no strangulation marks, there was no asphyxiation, no bruising to the neck. You have three times the lethal limit of fentanyl in George Floyd's system. You have George Floyd who has a tumor, and there are still questions as to why more testing wasn't done on that tumor. He has 75 percent blockage in one artery going to his heart. He recently recovered from Covid.

We had many medical professionals for the book and film review his medical records, and they all describe him as a ticking time bomb in a way. There is so much going on. However, you have the official autopsy from Dr. Andrew Baker released on the same day that George Floyd's family releases what they call an independent autopsy. That's what the mainstream media went with. They called it an independent autopsy, but these two medical examiners were essentially bought and paid for by George Floyd's family, and they were released on the exact same day. One should also wonder why that was.

Mr. Jekielek: Did they have direct access to George Floyd's body?

Ms. Collin: No, they did not. It was not an actual official autopsy. The only official autopsy on the body of George Floyd was conducted by Dr. Andrew Baker. There's some grand jury testimony where he's asked if he faced any pressure to change his autopsy or come to a certain conclusion when it came to his autopsy. He asks to first consult with his lawyer before he can answer that question under oath as part of that grand jury proceeding, and then comes back two hours later to answer the question. There's a lot of things that happened that the public wasn't aware of.

Mr. Jekielek: This is a quote from testimony, “And Dr. Baker, he said to me, ‘Amy, what happens when the actual evidence doesn't match up with the public narrative that everyone's already decided upon?’” Then he said, "This is the kind of case that ends careers."

Ms. Collin: He's ultimately admitting very early on how much pressure his office is facing. I think that pressure spread all over the justice system, the police department, the public, and the media. Everybody was able to feel it, because it was certainly palpable at that time. But yes, you're right, that testimony comes from an actual deposition that recently came to light that talks more about the pressure that they were facing.

In fact, we now know because of those depositions that the two prosecutors who were basically the head of the use of force department within the Hennepin County Attorney's office, did not want to charge the three other officers at all. They said morally and ethically, they didn't feel comfortable going forward with charges.

This is when you have the Attorney General of Minnesota swoop in and take over the case. He ultimately charges the three other officers with aiding and abetting murder all within that week. It was so chaotic. A lot of people aren't aware of what was going on each and every day, and that's why we wanted to lay it out the way we did.

Mr. Jekielek: Let's talk a little bit about current events. Just a few days ago, the Supreme Court has refused Derek Chauvin's appeal.

Ms. Collin: Yes. The judge, in the case, Peter Cahill, did not allow the MRT training slide to be used in trial. You have the appeal that was really based on this change of venue that was not granted. Keep in mind, Derek Chauvin is being tried within Hennepin County 10 months after the most damaging riots in Minneapolis history. You have this jury that is not sequestered, paraded in and out of this courthouse every day that has barbed wire all around it. National Guardsmen are there on scene each and every day. We talk about the message that sends, through Derek Chauvin's current attorney.

But the U.S. Supreme Court was only taking a look at that appeal based on that change of venue situation. There are still some more legal maneuvers here that they will look at. They did consider the U.S. Supreme Court taking this case to be a long shot, and obviously figured it was worth it. It sounds like his attorneys were not too surprised that the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to take the case.

Mr. Jekielek: It would seem that all of this evidence that was not considered in the trial should be considered at some point by someone.

Ms. Collin: Yes. That's what I say about this case too. It wasn't so much what the jury was allowed to see, but what they were not allowed to see. We even talk about this body camera footage. This is about an 18-minute interaction with George Floyd that day. It's the 90 seconds at the end that the jury is allowed to see in trial, and that's it. Obviously, we've talked about it being withheld from the public as well. You have George Floyd's criminal history, which is very lengthy and dates back decades. That is kept away from the jury. Also, you have the arrest in 2019 when we talked about how similar his behavior was to what happened in 2020. For the most part, the jury isn't allowed to see much of that either.

Mr. Jekielek: The other thing that just happened is that Derek Chauvin was actually stabbed in jail. Do you have any information on that?

Ms. Collin: This was so troubling on so many levels. It was eight days after we released the film and we did so with little expectations. But amazingly, millions of people had seen it already at that time. We got this terrible news about Derek who's in a medium-security facility in Arizona where he's been without any problems for 15 months now. We got word that he was in stable condition.

But the person that was giving word to the media was the actual man who put him behind bars in the first place, the Attorney General of Minnesota. Keith Ellison is the very first person to make a statement about his health condition. His own family wasn't aware of what happened to him, and they were in fact told several days later. We just know that he's in stable condition. At this point, there's very little that federal authorities have said about it, but they have said that he will survive, thankfully. But there are still so many questions surrounding that, for sure.

Mr. Jekielek: I keep thinking back to the chief of police and the head of training testifying that this standard technique that people are trained in every year is not a part of their approach to policing.

Ms. Collin: That's why we are where we are in Minneapolis now. You have a department that had nearly 900 officers at the beginning of May of 2020, which has dwindled to barely 500 at this point, three years later. But you had so many lies. Perhaps these leaders were so focused on Derek Chauvin and these other officers, they thought they could feed them to the wolves in a way, not really realizing the ripple effects that those decisions would have.

That's why we wanted to give a voice to these other officers in the film too, because they had never shared their stories before. Minneapolis really lost the best of the best when it comes to their police department, people who had served 20 to 30 years. This obviously isn't how they wanted to end their careers. They would go to work each and every day, not even worried about losing their job, but actually their freedom in the wake of all of this. That's hard for a lot of us to imagine, to have to face such a thing each and every day just going to work. They loved this job. They believed in serving and protecting, and it's pretty heartbreaking to hear from them.

Mr. Jekielek: One of the big stories in the film is the loss of the third precinct, or giving the third precinct to the mob.

Ms. Collin: A lot of people weren't aware this was a planned surrender of the third precinct. This is after the rioting had gone on for a couple of days in Minneapolis, and as crazy as it sounds now, they thought that giving this building to the mob would stop the rioting. None of the cops who got word of this plan thought it was a good one. Of course, they had to follow their chain of command in this instance.

They talk about how earlier in the day they're allowed to collect their personal belongings out of the third precinct. A city bus pulls up and they can pull out all of their personal belongings and evidence involved in cases and such, if you can even imagine this scene. Then that bus is supposed to come back and get them later in the evening when they give the go-ahead to give up the building.

This is in the film when they're basically running for their lives. There's no real exit strategy. They have to meet this bus about a half mile away as they're running through the street and being struck with rocks and bottles, which they discuss at great length. Then the bus is actually late to pick them up as they're waiting there to get a ride to their next location. It's really just absolutely horrific that this even happened in our country. Again, this was the reason why many officers left in the wake of all of this.

Mr. Jekielek: You've been in the media for 20 years. You've won a number of Emmys for some of your investigative work in the past. How does this investigation compare with others you've done?

Ms. Collin: This is another reason that we wanted to go forward with this—we're all still paying the consequences of those lies to this day. Again, not only in Minneapolis, but you can pick the city, and that seems to be the case. I really am a believer that if the truth was told about this very early on, it just didn't have to happen. Perhaps there would've been some fallout legally involving other things, and those would have been conversations.

But instead, to manipulate a story like this to hide things from the public is really a testament to poor leadership where nobody was willing to just stand up and speak the truth. I've never seen corruption at this level before in my career. For a long time I thought, “Okay, somebody else is going to do something about this.” But I knew that I also had a very unique perspective and I needed to do something.

Mr. Jekielek: Have you seen, “Who Killed Michael Brown?”

Ms. Collin: I actually have not, although it's on my list. I've heard of it.

Mr. Jekielek: It reminds me of this other excellent film, which I would recommend people watch. The theme is there's a prescribed narrative.

Ms. Collin: With my backstory, I never considered myself a political person at all. I really lived to be a journalist from the time I was five or six years old. It's what I wanted to do. But this really became a fight against evil that I saw right before my eyes. It seemed like something I'd never seen on this scale before. That was something that truly bothered me. It made it all the more important to ask, “Is this what we want our justice system to look like?”

Alex Kueng speaks to that. Again, he's the officer in prison for three-and-a-half years after being on the job for three days, the black officer who arrested George Floyd. But he speaks to that and says, “Don't fall for this race bait that the media peddles, and be a critical thinker.” The street justice doesn't get us anywhere. Do we really want our justice system to be ruled by the mob?

It's something that every citizen of this country really needs to think about. In the book, I talk more about my personal story with what the media was doing, because I saw it where I was working. We had mandates put in place very early on after this incident with George Floyd. Half the people we interviewed for the news had to be non-white or from a protected class. I was the only one saying, "So, we are now implementing racism?" But I really couldn't wrap my head around how we felt, and how we were going to shape things and do things differently.

There were certain terms we couldn't use. We couldn't use the term rioting. You had many reporters obviously standing in front of burning buildings, talking about how moving these peaceful protests were in the wake of all this. But changing language and pushing this poison, in my opinion, on the public to think in a certain way really became quite dangerous.

Mr. Jekielek: There was a qualifier added whenever you were doing the reporting.

Ms. Collin: Yes. As I said, I was married to Bob for several years before all of this with no issue, but the mob certainly came after me and our family also. But I saw that the station where I work came to the mob too. All of a sudden there was a disclaimer in every story about the Minneapolis police that I'm married to the union president. The anchors would say that on the air every time they would talk about Minneapolis police. That had never been done before.

I didn't think I needed to start a newscast each and every night with who I was married to. What woman in this country would be told to do so? I was never allowed to anchor the news again. I was demoted as soon as the incident happened with George Floyd. I finished out my contract, but basically in a closet for the last couple of years. I could certainly see how the mob ruled the day in the media as well.

Mr. Jekielek: It's astonishing, given that you were at the top of your game.

Ms. Collin: Yes. I'm a Minnesota native. It's the station I grew up watching. I was the highest rated anchor in the Twin cities on the weekends. It was kind of the dream job that I had landed and I loved it. Although I certainly saw the media changing during my time there, but never on this scale with seeing how much information we decided to hide.

Mr. Jekielek: With Officer Kueng, you have his mother saying that she’s really worried that he'll come out a changed person, and she wants him to remain himself.

Speaker 10: My greatest fear is that it's going to change who he is. I just don't know who he's going to be when he comes out.

Ms. Collin: That was really the point of the film. We really wanted to give a voice to the people who had their voices silenced in all of this. That is what's so sad. You have Alex Kueng's story, for example. This is a kid who grew up in North Minneapolis, and he dreamed of being a police officer. His mom was a longtime Minneapolis educator. She worked in several public schools in Minneapolis. This was the kid you wanted to be a cop in Minneapolis.

Here he is, three days later, being thrown in prison. When I talk to him, I'm almost more bitter than this guy is. But he says that this isn't going to be the end of him, and he has a very good outlook and attitude. It tugs at your heartstrings even more, because you're just aware that there are a lot of really good people who got caught up in this. If the truth was told, it just clearly did not have to be this way.

Mr. Jekielek: What was the most shocking thing you discovered in your investigation?

Ms. Collin: Gosh, that's hard because as I said, I just kept shouting that line, “They're lying,” over and over again. I lost my faith in humanity a bit through all of this. I'll be honest, I'm a bit naive and think that people really do want to be good people and do what's right. So, to me, that was shocking. Still to this day, I'm not sure how many of these people can sleep at night and feel good about what they allowed to happen.

Minneapolis is really a shell of its former self. It was a lovely city before, but now you have skyrocketing crime, and crimes that never happened before in this Midwestern city. There are record homicides. Carjackings weren't even reported in Minneapolis before all of this, and now there are hundreds that transpire each and every year. Just how many victims were created along the way through all of this? I will say it's been heartening that people believe in the truth and that this film has done as well as it has. Another reason we wanted to offer it for free was so that you have no excuse to not watch it. The truth should be free.

Mr. Jekielek: Please tell me more about the making of the film. You said you're offering it for free. Generally, it is difficult to make films for free. How was it made?

Ms. Collin: Yes, it seemed like a good idea at the time. How hard could it be to make a free film? Through the book and some different book talks, we started crowdfunding. We said, “We're going to go ahead and put this documentary together. It's a pretty low budget. We didn't want it to come off that way, but for many of us, it was just a passion project. We were obviously volunteering our time to put this together. I worked as the reporter you see on film, but also as the producer of the film laying it out.

I had a wonderful director, JC Chaix, a former police officer. He really felt strongly about this, and he's an educator also. Then we have a very young guy, Josh Phelan, who took on the shooting of all of the interviews. He did the editing and the soundtrack. It really was just the three of us that put this together. We were able to raise these funds in a pretty short amount of time actually, just a couple of weeks. We knew once we locked in the price, we said, “All right, we will cover our expenses and we'll push this out in November for free.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s an astonishing feat, for that level of effort.

Ms. Collin: Thank you. I was close to a lot of these people too, and obviously had access. Putting the book out first helped people have the courage to come forward. Sometimes that can be scary to be in front of bright lights and on a camera. Putting the book out gave them a bit more courage to say that they would sign up to do the documentary with us.

Mr. Jekielek: How were you able to get in touch with Derek Chauvin? Because I know that he was very uninterested in communicating with the media for a long time.

Ms. Collin: We really saw how the media portrayed him early on just as this monster. He was really built up to be something that is so unlike who he really is. He's a very small, timid guy, a little shy and quirky. I obviously didn't know him before this. He's basically kind of my size, 5' 6”. He was built up into this character. I just approached him as somebody who was willing to listen to his side and give him a voice. This is someone who had served the city of Minneapolis for 19 years. He had 18 complaints in his past. So much was made of that, but it is actually a very low record of complaints.

One was a written reprimand for report writing. They were so minor. I'm not here to say there aren't bad cops, or that there aren’t bad doctors. But it's amazing to me what the media can do, with their power to turn someone into that. Actually, he was thankful that somebody was willing to put the truth out there. That was the same with the other officers as well. I was someone who didn't see them right away as the bad guy, because there was so much more to this story.

Mr. Jekielek: You've been watching from the inside what's been happening with the media. How did you see that manifest?

Ms. Collin: Social media became a part of the scene with the media. We're obviously competing all of a sudden for ad dollars there, and we became beholden to big pharma. I felt like that was several years ago. You could see where the ad revenue was coming into mainstream media. That's why I did feel comfortable going into independent media. Because it just felt like at the end of my career, we were just fine with pushing propaganda, and not pushing back at all. Again, they're shaping our words and telling us who we can interview, and what they need to look like.

Mr. Jekielek: Is this something that you saw progressively happening before? That's the thing I wanted to clarify.

Ms. Collin: Yes. I would say probably five or six years before all of this, then it just kind of kept snowballing. We were hiring journalists right out of college rather than letting them work their way up. That's because salaries went down because ad revenue went down for media stations. All of that was hand in hand. But no, this certainly wasn't just after George Floyd. Covid was a huge eye-opener for me as well. It was not so much what we were telling the public, but what we were not telling the public. Again, we were privy to information through people who were calling us about certain issues, but we just didn't care to reflect a certain side of the story.

Mr. Jekielek: Dr. Fauci revealed certain things when he was talking about changing the guidance he was offering around masks. Initially, he said, "You shouldn't wear them." Then he said, “You should.” He basically said that we did it because we wanted to make sure that there wasn't a run on masks. This exposed the idea that the policymakers don't tell people the truth, they tell the people the thing that will elicit the correct behavioral response. Is that something that you have thought about?

Ms. Collin: Absolutely. You saw these mantras being created in the wake of George Floyd by Black Lives Matter that we would be living on the right side of history. That was something that was repeated over and over again. In all of these specific things when it comes to language and how they were selling this to the public, it was very evident. They said that policing is racist and it's rooted in racism. We heard that again and again. It doesn't matter that George Floyd was arrested by a black cop. But if you go back and see some of these things they were selling early on, it's very evident in the film exactly what you're speaking to.

Mr. Jekielek: There's a number of people you show in the film who actively talk about and then double down on saying, “Our intention is to dismantle the police completely.”

Speaker 11: Our commitment is to end our city's toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department. To end policing as we know it.

Mr. Jekielek: One particular councilwoman was doing interviews about this topic and explaining that police would be replaced by social workers. Nobody in the communities that require the most policing actually want that, because they can imagine what it would look like.

Ms. Collin: Minneapolis has always been a very blue city controlled by Democrats for decades, but they have moved into electing outright socialists for their city council. Part of their agenda is dismantling the police department, and they really believe in that. The woman you're speaking about, she decided not to run for city council after that, but she certainly did damage. She was doubling down on dismantling the police department, which I would say they ultimately did. She moved out of town. She sold her house in Minneapolis and left, and lives in another city in Minnesota now.

Many of these leaders that were pushing this on the public, they're all paying for the consequences, and many of them have moved out of Minneapolis at this point. This became the perfect place for this to happen. You had the perfect people in the perfect positions for this to play out, whether it be the Attorney General of Minnesota, the governor, or the mayor of Minneapolis, also an outsider who was hand-plucked to come to Minneapolis in the first place. But Minnesotans really are very good and honest people. I knew that I wasn't crazy to believe that this simply didn't have to happen the way it did.

Mr. Jekielek: Any final thoughts as we finish?

Ms. Collin: I would challenge people to share the film with as many people as possible. I say that millions of people have watched it already. Not one mainstream station has yet to reach out for an interview, but that is the state of affairs we are at in the media, and it is sad to me that it's come to this. But don't be afraid to engage in these conversations, especially when the facts are on your side. We have to be able to talk about this, and I hope this does change some hearts and minds. But again, decide for yourself after you're able to see things that you haven't seen before.

Mr. Jekielek: Liz Collin, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Ms. Collin: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Mr. Jekielek: Thank you all for joining Liz Collin and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Jan Jekielek.